[quote="Jacqual"][quote="Omegawolf"]Figured since this thread was here I'd get a question or two in as well. Firstly does h/s take an action? Secondly, can a thief backstab every round of combat (or every other round) if they meet all the requirements? I have a thief in my game currently that has a [i]ring of invisibility[/i] that she uses to good effect, essentially removing the need to h/s. She uses the ring as her first action, and then next round m/s as part of her move (and moving at a reduced rate as per the rules), and then backstabs. She then rinses and repeats. I've had a few more intelligent opponents try to remain alert, but if she makes her m/s roll and is invisible, I'm not sure there's really much that the enemies can do. I will state that I've had casters catch on a couple of times now and use [i]detect invisibility[/i], but she just defaulted to using h/s and using the terrain to her advantage at that point and then m/s out when the fighter started attacking the person she wanted to backstab (and thus its attention was diverted).
Now I am not in any way complaining, she is using her head and playing a highly tactical thief in combat, which is pretty cool to watch, and she only does her damage every other round (if she hits, which she usually does thanks to the +4 from backstab and +2 from invisibility). I just want to make sure that it's all legit and by the rules.[/quote]
This is WHY the suprise roll has to be rolled. Yes the thief comes up of invisibility, rolls suprise and backstabs. Next round he puts the ring on, runs like hell (and get attacked btw, or I would allow him to sneak out of combat instead of using the ambush of course)) but he is invisible, and then sneaks back and repeats. If he fails surprise roll he only gets one action and the opponent gets to pound him back. But if he makes his surprise roll he has surprise and ambush, which means he can have too back stabs (and if you rule the opponent can spin to face the thief he can spin to stay on his back as well) and then chose to leave (no return fire possible). He won't be able to ambush again as long as the NPCs ready themselves for combat, but if this was a sniper situation he could wait for them to put their guard down 10 or so minutes later and repeat. If time is of the essence he could attack , half the time get surprise and a back stab, fight for a round invisible or run (getting attacked by a wild swing) and repeat every couple of rounds. The only thing that could be done in this case if for the NPCs to put their backs to to the wall and wait it out - if time is of an essence (help coming etc.) the thief will either have to let them live or fight them without benefit of invisibility - thought it still would be best to surprise attack, not attack and return to invisibility - since he would only be attacking one opponent at a time and if he surprised he would be have time to turn back invisible before the counter attack (surprise free attack, new round, not invisible, roll initiative: thief wins forgoes attack turns invisible retreats - some games would allow no counter attack in this case - I forget the page number that their is a roll saying invisible characters can leave melee without a free counter attack. Fails the initiative roll, and takes a counter attack then leaves melee invisibly
WOW if back stab happens automatically. That s double triple or more damage at each attack run, with only a return attack less than half the time. A high level thief would be able to butcher any character of equal level in a one to one battle that did not have a detect invisible power. A thief for times 4 damage should be able to take out a fairly large group. Mind you - you can detect invisible with a variety of primitive tactics. Move into a room with a door, open the door only so much that one person can get threw then close door and wait for thief to go threw. So its not an auto kill if you do not have the right magic. But its think or we will be dead.
"I thought the invisibility broke as soon as the invisible character attacked, even if by a ring? " Yes
but as said above you attack from invisibility, you get the bonus to hit since you where not seen till the attack was made. Your then visible, and must spend your next action/round not attacking to go invisible again. A spell would just be gone. Magic items could be activated again.
Makes sense for hide but not the spell :"I always used the spell as an example of how it broke, with the character not being able to return to invisible until away from the enemy.[/quote] So a magic user can't cast invisible spell to get out of combat? If your going to nerf the ring at least make sense of it. Say it can only be turned on once a turn/hour/day - the once a turn would stop the battle issue above - or at least slow it down. But even if you say it does't work while being watched, which I can see having some cool elements (like the super hero who was only invisible if no one was looking at him - lucky for him it only applied to people) thief ambushes, surprises, hits and runs away, turns around corner puts on ring, repeat. Or with a group, scouts ahead, hits , runs, monsters follow, and are hit by party ambush. While fighting party, thief puts on ring, ambushes monsters again. Runs away (while monsters fight party), repeats. The double damage and better hit would make up for the loss of a round or two. And if the thief is doing triple damage is always a win win win.
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