[quote="sjansd"][quote="Geoffrey"]In spite of not being lawful, druids have a tightly organized hierarchy. The chaotic evil Drow in Gary's D trilogy also have a certain measure of hierarchy. How far can one go with a chaotic evil cult without making one think it is more lawful than chaotic?[/quote]
Lawful groups have a clear division of labour with emphasis on [u]impersonality[/u] of positions (no nepotism!), formal organization (not based on personal relationships) usually created to achieve explicit objectives, established structure of leadership, written rules, records, and communications.
Chaotic groups have no clear division of labour (nepotism abounds), informal organization (based on personal relationships) usually not created to achieve explicit objectives, no established structure of leadership (someone could become leader by buying the position or beating up the previous boss for example), few if any written rules, records, or communications.
Druids could not be called a "tightly organized hierarchy" because of the chaotic manner in which they choose their leaders (beating each other up). They also do not have written rules or records, as these are passed on orally, so their ability to function as an organized group is somewhat limited. It is probable that druids ignore or "forget" orders from their "superiors" when those orders are simply not practical.
The Vault of the Drow is precisely how a chaotic evil society functions, with a small number of [i]families[/i] dominating everyone else, bullying them into submission, with those families constantly fighting with each other for power via politics, backstabbing, or open warfare.
Examples of Lawful organizations:
The Girl Scouts
The United States Army
Annual Conference for Media Relations Professionals
Walmart
Examples of Chaotic organizations:
A clique of high school girls
A biker gang
Annual Gathering of the Juggalos
A "mom and pop" store
[quote="Geoffrey"]Could, for example, a CE cult mirror the structure of the Catholic Church (Pope-->bishops-->priests-->deacons)?[/quote]
Absolutely. It would not however have the development of canon law and bureaucratic organization of the High Middle Ages, it would be more akin to the Early Middle Ages when local bishops often ignored or conveniently "forgot" official Church doctrine. Lay lords often sold bishoprics and abbacies to unworthy, self-seeking churchmen, who then recouped the purchase prices by exploiting their tenants and subordinates (this commerce was known as [i]simony[/i]). Monasteries frequently ignored the strict Benedictine Rule and some priests had concubines, and many had wives. Romuald of Ravenna (d. 1027) narrowly escaped a murder plot by his fellow monks who sought to throw him from a balcony for repeatedly and harshly reproving them for their vices (Peter Damian, A.D. 1042).
[quote="Geoffrey"]If so, how would such a CE cult differ from a LE cult? If not, how much structure could the cult have while remaining chaotic?[/quote]
If two divisions of the U.S. army were to meet each other on the battlefield, they would be friendly and cooperate with each other. If two biker gangs were to meet each other at a biker convention, they might be friendly toward each other or they might have a shoot-out depending on their [i]personal[/i] relationships. Which is lawful and which is chaotic?[/quote]
Good view, but clearly there is some over lap.
The mafia I have always thought as Lawful evil and certainly they vie for power for families and what not. They however structured their organization on purpose like the military with captains and what not, and promotions.
I dont think the infighting for who has power matters as much as the level of authority ones rank gives for speaking for the drow.
A drow ambassador given diplomatic rank if Lawful evil could make deals in theory that Lolth would have to follow. The Pope, if he makes an official doctrine, everyone agrees it is law. It Lady Gaga orders her "monsters" to wear green hats they may, or may not. If they do it because they like the idea. A democracy has chaotic elements built into it, a new leader has no problem chanting the course of the entires nations direction - but has to get agreement of his people - the POPE needs no such agreement, all but the most senior people (the ones near his rank) will just do as he says. But the Pope will not ignore previous law of other popes, he is bound by their decisions - if not he lose this authority. Someone taking over Green peace can change what ever they want, only the message keeps the members together and most people have no idea or care how it operates. On reflection I put the Girl scouts on the neutral to law and chaos. They pretend to be lawful, and enjoy it, but as soon as the laws get in away of fun they ignore then, change them or loss membership. There is very little the organization could order you to do that you do not want to do already. However the values it teachers are lawful ones and it attracts lawful members so I suppose it defacto lawful, but not by its very organizational structure - it is clearly a way of lawfuls to be a bit less lawful and leave the standardized organizational structure of parents are in charge.
Fan clubs, volunteer events (with random people taking over position,) and places that value merit over years of service are all on the chaotic side.
Sports clubs, like baseball are chaotic in nature. Rather than support one coach for ever if they fail to produce they are simply replaced. Teams are entirely based on merit and whim of the owners trying to appeal to popularity. There is some organization but only to further mutual agreed goals. Cheating at all levels is acceptable as long as you don't get caught - and the consequences are only what is necessary to keep the organization afloat - there be no real attempt to stop such cheating again.
PS - The monks ritual beating up does on reflection seem rather chaotic - I suppose it is in how it done. I suppose it is trying to balance that LG and LE work in the same organization and there has to be some way to decide if we are going good or evil this year - rather than all out war. No organization is perfectly lawful or chaotic. Any change of leadership is a bit chaotic, but it also a bit illogical not to have the best leader running things. It like eating 3 meals a day, something things are just necessary.
However the chaotic running of the church points out that the church had a lawful structure, but it can be taken over by chaotics.
Likewise when tax systems of the middle ages where private affairs where you payed for the right to just take as much money as you could from anyone - or when fire men where private vs public in the roman empire - or in lit where Falstaff takes his captains recuit me pay and just hires convicts totally unsuited to the job and takes the money for himself - can you imagine where an army captain has to find his own recruits?
Chaotic organizations have you do everything yourself - and very little over interconnection between units. If a military take a big hit, in a lawful organization you can get the government to fill your ranks - maybe with your rivals troops - in a chaotic orngazinot your command is left empty and the king will just call on a another commander with a full tropps until commander A can fill his troops up with his own people.
In a lawful organization the money goes to the top and is shared. In a chaotic organization the drow would divide up magic treasure among themselves - there would be some obligation to pass some forward to their own commanders but other than say one item that the queen drow asked for, the rest just disappears into adventures pockets.
In a lawful organization you would be given rations and what not - but just like the early British troops in North America, your expected to buy your own clothing and gear - often from exploitive parasites.
In a lawful organization your spected to wear an use the same equipment. In a chaotic drow society if you have a +5 sword you can use it, and it is yours. In a lawful society that +5 sword would be transferred to the +5 sword using unit. That might happen her too but they you get transferred to that unit as well.
Chaotic units are expected to act on their own without support, and do more things themselves. Lawful units have things like the ICE cream ship from WW II, the 'Ice Cream Barge', a ship devoted to giving ice cream to the troops. Chaotic troops might make this themselves of course
But the example of the Church with poeple ignoring orders, dong what they want, and furthermore, having their own doctrine about religion - the Cathars for example believed that earth was Hell and everyone was trapped on it - however a lawful organization tries to make a huge effort to make sure everyone is on the same page, a chaotic does not care if you do things differently.
Basically drow are organized like an adventuring party, with their leaders only sitting on top as long as everyone agrees they are leaders with good ideas.
Lawful groups have a clear division of labour with emphasis on [u]impersonality[/u] of positions (no nepotism!), formal organization (not based on personal relationships) usually created to achieve explicit objectives, established structure of leadership, written rules, records, and communications.
Chaotic groups have no clear division of labour (nepotism abounds), informal organization (based on personal relationships) usually not created to achieve explicit objectives, no established structure of leadership (someone could become leader by buying the position or beating up the previous boss for example), few if any written rules, records, or communications.
Druids could not be called a "tightly organized hierarchy" because of the chaotic manner in which they choose their leaders (beating each other up). They also do not have written rules or records, as these are passed on orally, so their ability to function as an organized group is somewhat limited. It is probable that druids ignore or "forget" orders from their "superiors" when those orders are simply not practical.
The Vault of the Drow is precisely how a chaotic evil society functions, with a small number of [i]families[/i] dominating everyone else, bullying them into submission, with those families constantly fighting with each other for power via politics, backstabbing, or open warfare.
Examples of Lawful organizations:
The Girl Scouts
The United States Army
Annual Conference for Media Relations Professionals
Walmart
Examples of Chaotic organizations:
A clique of high school girls
A biker gang
Annual Gathering of the Juggalos
A "mom and pop" store
[quote="Geoffrey"]Could, for example, a CE cult mirror the structure of the Catholic Church (Pope-->bishops-->priests-->deacons)?[/quote]
Absolutely. It would not however have the development of canon law and bureaucratic organization of the High Middle Ages, it would be more akin to the Early Middle Ages when local bishops often ignored or conveniently "forgot" official Church doctrine. Lay lords often sold bishoprics and abbacies to unworthy, self-seeking churchmen, who then recouped the purchase prices by exploiting their tenants and subordinates (this commerce was known as [i]simony[/i]). Monasteries frequently ignored the strict Benedictine Rule and some priests had concubines, and many had wives. Romuald of Ravenna (d. 1027) narrowly escaped a murder plot by his fellow monks who sought to throw him from a balcony for repeatedly and harshly reproving them for their vices (Peter Damian, A.D. 1042).
[quote="Geoffrey"]If so, how would such a CE cult differ from a LE cult? If not, how much structure could the cult have while remaining chaotic?[/quote]
If two divisions of the U.S. army were to meet each other on the battlefield, they would be friendly and cooperate with each other. If two biker gangs were to meet each other at a biker convention, they might be friendly toward each other or they might have a shoot-out depending on their [i]personal[/i] relationships. Which is lawful and which is chaotic?[/quote]
Good view, but clearly there is some over lap.
The mafia I have always thought as Lawful evil and certainly they vie for power for families and what not. They however structured their organization on purpose like the military with captains and what not, and promotions.
I dont think the infighting for who has power matters as much as the level of authority ones rank gives for speaking for the drow.
A drow ambassador given diplomatic rank if Lawful evil could make deals in theory that Lolth would have to follow. The Pope, if he makes an official doctrine, everyone agrees it is law. It Lady Gaga orders her "monsters" to wear green hats they may, or may not. If they do it because they like the idea. A democracy has chaotic elements built into it, a new leader has no problem chanting the course of the entires nations direction - but has to get agreement of his people - the POPE needs no such agreement, all but the most senior people (the ones near his rank) will just do as he says. But the Pope will not ignore previous law of other popes, he is bound by their decisions - if not he lose this authority. Someone taking over Green peace can change what ever they want, only the message keeps the members together and most people have no idea or care how it operates. On reflection I put the Girl scouts on the neutral to law and chaos. They pretend to be lawful, and enjoy it, but as soon as the laws get in away of fun they ignore then, change them or loss membership. There is very little the organization could order you to do that you do not want to do already. However the values it teachers are lawful ones and it attracts lawful members so I suppose it defacto lawful, but not by its very organizational structure - it is clearly a way of lawfuls to be a bit less lawful and leave the standardized organizational structure of parents are in charge.
Fan clubs, volunteer events (with random people taking over position,) and places that value merit over years of service are all on the chaotic side.
Sports clubs, like baseball are chaotic in nature. Rather than support one coach for ever if they fail to produce they are simply replaced. Teams are entirely based on merit and whim of the owners trying to appeal to popularity. There is some organization but only to further mutual agreed goals. Cheating at all levels is acceptable as long as you don't get caught - and the consequences are only what is necessary to keep the organization afloat - there be no real attempt to stop such cheating again.
PS - The monks ritual beating up does on reflection seem rather chaotic - I suppose it is in how it done. I suppose it is trying to balance that LG and LE work in the same organization and there has to be some way to decide if we are going good or evil this year - rather than all out war. No organization is perfectly lawful or chaotic. Any change of leadership is a bit chaotic, but it also a bit illogical not to have the best leader running things. It like eating 3 meals a day, something things are just necessary.
However the chaotic running of the church points out that the church had a lawful structure, but it can be taken over by chaotics.
Likewise when tax systems of the middle ages where private affairs where you payed for the right to just take as much money as you could from anyone - or when fire men where private vs public in the roman empire - or in lit where Falstaff takes his captains recuit me pay and just hires convicts totally unsuited to the job and takes the money for himself - can you imagine where an army captain has to find his own recruits?
Chaotic organizations have you do everything yourself - and very little over interconnection between units. If a military take a big hit, in a lawful organization you can get the government to fill your ranks - maybe with your rivals troops - in a chaotic orngazinot your command is left empty and the king will just call on a another commander with a full tropps until commander A can fill his troops up with his own people.
In a lawful organization the money goes to the top and is shared. In a chaotic organization the drow would divide up magic treasure among themselves - there would be some obligation to pass some forward to their own commanders but other than say one item that the queen drow asked for, the rest just disappears into adventures pockets.
In a lawful organization you would be given rations and what not - but just like the early British troops in North America, your expected to buy your own clothing and gear - often from exploitive parasites.
In a lawful organization your spected to wear an use the same equipment. In a chaotic drow society if you have a +5 sword you can use it, and it is yours. In a lawful society that +5 sword would be transferred to the +5 sword using unit. That might happen her too but they you get transferred to that unit as well.
Chaotic units are expected to act on their own without support, and do more things themselves. Lawful units have things like the ICE cream ship from WW II, the 'Ice Cream Barge', a ship devoted to giving ice cream to the troops. Chaotic troops might make this themselves of course
But the example of the Church with poeple ignoring orders, dong what they want, and furthermore, having their own doctrine about religion - the Cathars for example believed that earth was Hell and everyone was trapped on it - however a lawful organization tries to make a huge effort to make sure everyone is on the same page, a chaotic does not care if you do things differently.
Basically drow are organized like an adventuring party, with their leaders only sitting on top as long as everyone agrees they are leaders with good ideas.
